Ethan's Retrocomputing Corner - DEC Professional 380
classiccmp: DEC Professional 380
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:36:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: DEC Professional 380
> Yep! Don't know if it has the color option but the VR201 will work with
> the correct cable. You also need a lk201/301/401 keyboard.
Have to admit, I don't even care if the guy comes up with a keyboard. I've
got that covered. Good to know a LK401 will work on it though, I tend to
prefer the 401, but will probably use a LK201 in this case.
> > I know it's got a RD52 in it, and I suspect it's a working system as it is
>
> A quantum 30mb drive that is very solid.
Better yet, I've got a couple spares :^)
> The console software if that wat it was running is rather odd stuff. It
> runs RT11 and possible a hacked Venix(or is it Xenix) and POS. The Venix
> is available at the UU.se FTP site and runs ok if your into unix like OS
> of the V7 flavor.
Believe it or not, I got the system because I want to run POS, but might
use it for RT-11 also. I might give Venix a try, but am not really
interested in running it.
Am I correct in assuming that POS is also available at the UU.se site? It
looks like it might be there in Teledisk images. I know it was released to
DECUS years ago. Hmmmm, this might be enough of an incentive to get one of my
DECmate III's up and running! I think I'll have to run up to storage tonite
and grab a keyboard, monitor, and that funky enclosure for turning a desktop
into a tower!
Does POS include some kind of program to allow the system to act as a VT100
or VT220? I seem to recall something along those lines.
Zane
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:12:48 -0400
From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: DEC Professional 380
> Believe it or not, I got the system because I want to run POS, but might
> use it for RT-11 also.
RT-11 runs pretty nicely on a Pro. It's no longer officially supported,
but if you buy a RT-11 5.7 RX50 distribution from Mentec you will get a floppy
that boots on a Pro, and it is fully Y2K compliant.
>Am I correct in assuming that POS is also available at the UU.se site? It
>looks like it might be there in Teledisk images.
If you'd rather have "straight block-by-block" RX50 images, look at
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/pro/
These are a bit easier to use (with PUTR) than the teledisk images.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:33:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: allisonp@world.std.com
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: DEC Professional 380
> > A quantum 30mb drive that is very solid.
>
> Better yet, I've got a couple spares :^)
Yes, its the d540 near indestructable.
> Am I correct in assuming that POS is also available at the UU.se site? It
> looks like it might be there in Teledisk images. I know it was released to
> DECUS years ago. Hmmmm, this might be enough of an incentive to get one of my
> DECmate III's up and running! I think I'll have to run up to storage tonite
> and grab a keyboard, monitor, and that funky enclosure for turning a desktop
> into a tower!
If not there also check John Wilson's site Dbit.com.
Johns site also has stuff for the DMII/III and the mono cable/keyboard/crt
works for both pro and DM!
POS is a like it or hate it OS, but it's light years ahead of NT being
based on the RSX-11 model. If you have POS and decnet... you can either
run DDCMP via serial to a decnet host or if you have the net card DECnet
10b5 phaseIII (maybe phase 4 was out there too).
> Does POS include some kind of program to allow the system to act as a VT100
> or VT220? I seem to recall something along those lines.
Yes.
Allison
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:44:17 +0100 (BST)
From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: DEC Professional 380
> Yes! I finally scored a Pro380, well, actually it's a "VAX Console", but
> hey, same thing right?
Might be... I thought some 'VAX Consoles' were Pro350s.
The way to tell it to take the machine apart (very easy, you don't even
need tools) and look at the motherboard. The Pro350 has the F11 chipset,
like an 11/23. A row of 40 pin chips, at least one of which is a
'carrier' with 2 PLCC-like things on top. The Pro380 has the J11 CPU
which is a larger carrier (I forget how many pins, but it's a lot larger
than a 40 pin chip), like an 11/73.
The 'VAX Console' version has a special I/O card in the rearmost slot of
the cardcage IIRC.
>
> Question, does it use the same monitor as the DECmate and Rainbow's? I
> know there was a colour and a mono version of the monitor, is do they both
> work on the same computer, or do you have to match specific computers to
> specific monitors? Having asked that, I should be getting the monitor in
> the next few days from the person I just got the computer from.
> From what I rememeber, the colour monitor only works if you have an
upgrade card (extra video memory, basically) in the Pro. And this card is
different between the 350 and 380 machines.
Yes, the monitors (and keyboards) are the same between the 'Bow and the
Pro. So is the mono monitor cable (which is straight-through DA15-P to
DA15-S). But the colour monitor cable (DA15-P at the computer end to a
little box with the RJ11 keyboard socket and 3 BNC tails to the monitor)
is different between the 'Bow and the Pro.
If you have a mono monitor + cable you will be fine.
-tony
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:28:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: DEC Professional 380
> Might be... I thought some 'VAX Consoles' were Pro350s.
Hmmm, as it says PC380 on the back, I'm assuming it's a Pro380. Knowing my
luck I'm wrong.
> The 'VAX Console' version has a special I/O card in the rearmost slot of
> the cardcage IIRC.
That it does, the only other cards in this particular system are the Hard
Drive and Floppy Controllers. I noticed that when I was trying to see if
the Ethernet port was connected to anything, doesn't look like it is, rats!
When I checked the cards last night one thing really struck me, and that was
how clean inside the system was. Of course it did just come out of a
computer room a few hours before I got it :^)
Unless something prevents me, I hope to get it up and running tonite.
Zane
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:39:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Pechter <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: DEC Professional 380
> > Might be... I thought some 'VAX Consoles' were Pro350s.
Some were '380's... I was told they used whatever was in stock (first
the leftover 350's, (since who wanted a 350 when the 380 was
available)...
Then they used the 380's.
> Hmmm, as it says PC380 on the back, I'm assuming it's a Pro380. Knowing my
> luck I'm wrong.
>
> > The 'VAX Console' version has a special I/O card in the rearmost slot of
> > the cardcage IIRC.
>
> That it does, the only other cards in this particular system are the Hard
> Drive and Floppy Controllers. I noticed that when I was trying to see if
> the Ethernet port was connected to anything, doesn't look like it is, rats!
I wish I had one here on my 350.
Be glad you found the 380. I'd kill for one and kill again for the J11
instead of the F11 chip...
> When I checked the cards last night one thing really struck me, and that was
> how clean inside the system was. Of course it did just come out of a
> computer room a few hours before I got it :^)
Doesn't matter. You should see some of the "computer rooms" these days.
>
> Unless something prevents me, I hope to get it up and running tonite.
>
> Zane
Good luck.
Bill
---
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC,
The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:21:42 +0100 (BST)
From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: DEC Professional 380
> > Might be... I thought some 'VAX Consoles' were Pro350s.
>
> Hmmm, as it says PC380 on the back, I'm assuming it's a Pro380. Knowing my
> luck I'm wrong.
Yes, that's a Pro380, unless somebody has swapped boards/cases.
>
> > The 'VAX Console' version has a special I/O card in the rearmost slot of
> > the cardcage IIRC.
>
> That it does, the only other cards in this particular system are the Hard
> Drive and Floppy Controllers. I noticed that when I was trying to see if
> the Ethernet port was connected to anything, doesn't look like it is, rats!
No, the ethernet connector goes to the rear card slot only. You need a
special (and some claim hard-to-find) ethernet card to use it.
I have 3 Pros, 2 off 350 and 1 off 380. Along with one of the special I/O
cards (which seems to have extra serial ports, a parallel port, and GPIV
on it), and an ethernet card.
>
> When I checked the cards last night one thing really struck me, and that was
> how clean inside the system was. Of course it did just come out of a
> computer room a few hours before I got it :^)
The thing that struck me about all the DEC 'PCs' was how very easy they
are to take to bits to a module level. Of course this doesn't really help
me, as I am going to want to go further anyway...
-tony
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:19:03 -0700
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: More on DEC Pro 380
Well, I got the console cable, monitor, and monitor cable tonite. I didn't
get the keyboard (thankfully) as he'd not found one.
Dug up a couple LK201's in storage, came home found a powercable (actually
unplugged a Sparc 2 to get the power), and turned it on. Booted nice and
smooth. Looks to be running some munged version of POS 3.2 with the VAX
Console software on top of it.
Now I've got a couple software related questions.
First is there a way to get out of the VAX Console software into something
resembling POS? It doesn't look like it.
Second. How do I get it to boot off of a floppy? Opps, never mind. I
just booted off of my RT-11 floppy. The problem seems to be with the copy
I made a year or so ago to use, now I'm using the original and it boots
fine. COOL! Hmm, this might explain why I couldn't get the /73 to boot
off of that floppy.
OK, that brings up a third question. Can a Quantum 540 hard drive turned
into a RD52 on a VAXstation 2000 be used in a DEC Pro380? Or do you need
to do some kind of funky formating on the Pro itself. I'm thinking of
setting up a Hard Drive with POS, and one with RT-11 when I can find the
time.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:28:04 +0930
From: "Geoff Roberts" <geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More on DEC Pro 380
----- Original Message -----
From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh@aracnet.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 1999 1:49
Subject: More on DEC Pro 380
I think there is a startup file that can be changed to stop the console
software running.
I've got a manual somewhere here that explains the install procedure.
> OK, that brings up a third question. Can a Quantum 540 hard drive turned
> into a RD52 on a VAXstation 2000 be used in a DEC Pro380? Or do you need
> to do some kind of funky formating on the Pro itself.
I have an identical vaxconsole/Pro380 that came with my Vax 8530.
It had a dud hard drive and I (eventually) managed to sub a common or garden
Seagate(?) (I think - will check) MFM drive. IIRC, I had to LLF it in a PC
before POS would format it.
Aside from that, it was no big problem.
I did try 2 or 3 quot;status unknown" MFM drives before I found one that would
work.
> I'm thinking of
> setting up a Hard Drive with POS, and one with RT-11 when I can find the
> time.
Sounds like fun. Might have to try that myself in my copious free
time......;^)
Cheers
Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Mark's College
Port Pirie, South Australia.
Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au
ICQ #: 1970476
Work Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 (1100-1800 Mon-Thurs)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 03:08:26 -0400
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More on DEC Pro 380
On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote:
> I have an identical vaxconsole/Pro380 that came with my Vax 8530.
> It had a dud hard drive and I (eventually) managed to sub a common or garden
> Seagate(?) (I think - will check) MFM drive. IIRC, I had to LLF it in a PC
> before POS would format it.
> Aside from that, it was no big problem.
> I did try 2 or 3 "status unknown" MFM drives before I found one that would
> work.
The RD31 was a Seagate ST225, and the RD32 was an ST251...The ST251 did
something like 40ms avg. access, and the ST251-1 was 28ms...The best upgrade I
ever did in one of my pdp11/73s running RSTS/E was replace the ST251 with an
ST251-1. :-)
Anyway do the MFM controllers in PROs have the same hard-coded drive model
restrictions as their Qbus big brothers, like the RQDXn family?
Also, on the subject of RT11...Does anyone know if Mentec has any sort of
"hobbyist" class license for the PDP11 OSs, or if not, does anyone know what
their actual prices are like?
-Dave McGuire
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:32:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: allisonp@world.std.com
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More on DEC Pro 380
> The RD31 was a Seagate ST225, and the RD32 was an ST251...The ST251 did
> something like 40ms avg. access, and the ST251-1 was 28ms...The best upgrade I
> ever did in one of my pdp11/73s running RSTS/E was replace the ST251 with an
> ST251-1. :-)
Quantum D540 is the RD52, 31mb and faster than either of the seagates.
Also the 251 has a lousy track record for reliability (heat and skimpy spindle
bearings).
> Anyway do the MFM controllers in PROs have the same hard-coded drive model
> restrictions as their Qbus big brothers, like the RQDXn family?
Yes and no. they are limited to drives they were used with up to I think
the rd32. No, it's not a MSCP controller like RQDX.
> Also, on the subject of RT11...Does anyone know if Mentec has any sort of
> "hobbyist" class license for the PDP11 OSs, or if not, does anyone know what
> their actual prices are like?
No on the hobby license yet. No idea on prices.
Allison
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:37:57 -0400
From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More on DEC Pro 380
> Anyway do the MFM controllers in PROs have the same hard-coded drive model
> restrictions as their Qbus big brothers, like the RQDXn family?
On a PRO, the MFM hard drive is ID'd by the number of heads and
number of cylinders. If you look at, for example, DW.MAC on a RT-11
distribution kit, you'll find the table quite easily. You can add
your own devices to the table - just keep in mind that it has to
be in ascending order by heads, and then ascending order by
cylinders.
OK, the above is a bit of an oversimplification - if the drive in
question happens to be a RD50, the drive might be damaged by the
seek test that counts the number of cylinders. So RD50's
are identified by a bit in the status/init register, and not
by the seek test.
The PRO's MFM controller only allows 3 bits for the head ID and 10
bits for the cylinder ID, so you can only use drives up to 8
heads and 1024 cylinders (aka the RD53).
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:06:27 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More on DEC Pro 380
A couple of notes:
1) Which MFM drives you can use with your Pro 380 depends on the ROMs
on the harddrive adapter card. You need to determine that and consult
the archives at sunsite for a blurb that details which drives go with
which revisions of the ROMs.
2) If you don't have a daughterboard memory expansion card (NOT a memory
expansion card on the CTI bus), you can add 512KB easily. That turns
your Pro 380 into a 1MB machine without using a slot. I have available
spare daughterboard memory cards that you can strip the 64Kbit chips
from and add 256Kbit chips to get the 512KB. Let me know if you want
one.
3) To format harddrives in general, you can use the Pro Maintenance programs
that you normally run to check out the machine (available at ftp.update.uu.se)
When you start the program, before typing anything, you must type a magic
sequence of keystrokes to get the low-level formatting routine included in
the normal menu. The magic sequence is... I forgot! I'll have to look it
up later when I get home. Or maybe someone else can beat me to it?
4) When handling the CTI bus cards, be very careful of static and spurious
charges. It's very easy to zap these boards for some reason. Maybe the
PS doesn't discharge the caps?
Dave
"Zane H. Healy" wrote:
>
> Well, I got the console cable, monitor, and monitor cable tonite. I didn't
> get the keyboard (thankfully) as he'd not found one.
>
> Dug up a couple LK201's in storage, came home found a powercable (actually
> unplugged a Sparc 2 to get the power), and turned it on. Booted nice and
> smooth. Looks to be running some munged version of POS 3.2 with the VAX
> Console software on top of it.
>
> Now I've got a couple software related questions.
>
> First is there a way to get out of the VAX Console software into something
> resembling POS? It doesn't look like it.
>
> Second. How do I get it to boot off of a floppy? Opps, never mind. I
> just booted off of my RT-11 floppy. The problem seems to be with the copy
> I made a year or so ago to use, now I'm using the original and it boots
> fine. COOL! Hmm, this might explain why I couldn't get the /73 to boot
> off of that floppy.
>
> OK, that brings up a third question. Can a Quantum 540 hard drive turned
> into a RD52 on a VAXstation 2000 be used in a DEC Pro380? Or do you need
> to do some kind of funky formating on the Pro itself. I'm thinking of
> setting up a Hard Drive with POS, and one with RT-11 when I can find the
> time.
>
> Zane
> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
> | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
> | and Zane's Computer Museum. |
> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:09:00 -0400
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More on DEC Pro 380
On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, allisonp@world.std.com wrote:
>> The RD31 was a Seagate ST225, and the RD32 was an ST251...The ST251 did
>> something like 40ms avg. access, and the ST251-1 was 28ms...The best upgrade I
>> ever did in one of my pdp11/73s running RSTS/E was replace the ST251 with an
>> ST251-1. :-)
>
> Quantum D540 is the RD52, 31mb and faster than either of the seagates.
> Also the 251 has a lousy track record for reliability (heat and skimpy spindle
> bearings).
The Q540 was spec'd at, I believe, 35ms...but the ST251-1 (not 251) was 28ms.
I do agree about the heat and spindle bearing issues, though, 100%. I have
*never* seen a '540 fail. And they made much cooler sounds. :-)
>> Also, on the subject of RT11...Does anyone know if Mentec has any sort of
>> "hobbyist" class license for the PDP11 OSs, or if not, does anyone know what
>> their actual prices are like?
> No on the hobby license yet. No idea on prices.
Hmm. I think I'll ask them about the prices. By the "yet", are you
suggesting that someone is working on it? :-)
-Dave McGuire
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:38:48 -0400
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More on DEC Pro 380
>> Quantum D540 is the RD52, 31mb and faster than either of the seagates.
>> Also the 251 has a lousy track record for reliability (heat and skimpy spi
>> bearings).
>
> The Q540 was spec'd at, I believe, 35ms...but the ST251-1 (not 251) was 2
> I do agree about the heat and spindle bearing issues, though, 100%. I have
> *never* seen a '540 fail. And they made much cooler sounds. :-)
The 8 heads vs 4 makes up for the difference in access as you can see twice
the data before moving the head, in real use acess time averaged better for
the d540. That was especially tue after the 251 dies. Also the D540 is a
servo vs the 251s stepper positioner so that impacts reliability. Never
format a cold 251... the tracks move.
> Hmm. I think I'll ask them about the prices. By the "yet", are you
> suggesting that someone is working on it? :-)
Maybe Megan but, not I.
Allison
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:07:51 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More on DEC Pro 380
In case anyone cares, the magic keystroke sequence is
F12 F19 F5
on an LK201 keyboard. I assume it would be the same on
other compatible keyboards.
So, if you boot up the Pro/Installation and Maintenance
V3.2 disks (PRO179 at ftp.update.uu.se) and press that
key sequence before doing anything else, a menu item that
allows you to do a low-level harddisk format is added to
the usual menu.
If you don't have the ROMs at the correct revision level
for the model of the drive you have installed, it usually
just formats 10MB (an RD51).
Dave
"David C. Jenner" wrote:
> 3) To format harddrives in general, you can use the Pro Maintenance programs
> that you normally run to check out the machine (available at ftp.update.uu.se)
> When you start the program, before typing anything, you must type a magic
> sequence of keystrokes to get the low-level formatting routine included in
> the normal menu. The magic sequence is... I forgot! I'll have to look it
> up later when I get home. Or maybe someone else can beat me to it?
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